how about the continuation of medical experiments on animals after all the conclusive data is collected? i.e. tobacco companies stil testing cigarettes on mice and dogs? do we really need more information about whether smoking causes cancer?

This is probably my biggest problem with PETA. The lumping together of all animal testing as if it were the same issue. I think the animal testing of cigarettes is repulsive (a fact that I’ve pointed out to vegetarians who smoke plenty of times). But there’s a world of difference between testing cigarettes and testing cancer medicines. PETA doesn’t see that distinction.

perhaps i was generalizing too much before, and lashing out because i felt i had been attacked by P&T and by the Talent Show.

I can’t speak for Penn & Teller, but I’ve been lashing out at PETA, not you.

it’s easy to paint an organization like PeTA as horrible by only exposing the extremist, fanatical aspects.

My whole point is that reasonable activist groups don’t have those “extremist, fanatical aspects”.

The reason I’m against PETA is the same reason I’m against those fire-bombing assholes at the Earth Liberation Front. They’re lunatics whose hearts might be in the right place, but their actions do more harm as good.

It doesn’t make sense to me to support a group like the ELF when there are more moderate groups like the Sierra Club who don’t act like a bunch of angsty teenagers who don’t realize that their actions have consequences.

Likewise, I don’t think a group like PETA deserves the support that should be going to more reasonable groups like the Humane Society.

The tactics of PETA perpetuate the stereotype that animal rights supporters are all shrill fanatics who want to throw buckets of red paint on anyone who wears leather. Just compare the homepages of PETA and the Humane Society and you’ll see what I mean. Near the top of the HS’s homepage you’ll see this :

Hog farmers and animal activists can find common ground in battle over gestation crates.

And in a similar position on PETA’s homepage is this :

UP

i never called anyone a racist. but i do think that specism is sick and i will continue to make the comparison because i believe that there are too many similarities.

“The biggest one being that the Tuskegee experiments were secretive, cruel, and unnecessary (since there was already a treatment for syphilis).”

how about the continuation of medical experiments on animals after all the conclusive data is collected? i.e. tobacco companies stil testing cigarettes on mice and dogs? do we really need more information about whether smoking causes cancer? i’m not comparing all vivisection to the Tuskegee experiments. but there’s plenty of secretive, cruel and unnecesary animal testing going on- and that’s what i’m against.

perhaps i was generalizing too much before, and lashing out because i felt i had been attacked by P&T and by the Talent Show. it’s easy to paint an organization like PeTA as horrible by only exposing the extremist, fanatical aspects. i happen to believe the organization also has a good side, but it’s a side that no one bothers to talk about.

let me try to explain my position a little better.

i’m not PeTA. i’m not their spokesperson. i do support them (and other groups like the humane society) because there are many other good things they do- like promoting healthy diets and promoting research on how diet can effect things like cancer. i’m not for the total liberation of all animals (i realize that’s impossible), and getting rid of all medical testing (i realize that a lot of good has come out of it). i do’nt think eating meat is immoral- it’s a personal choice. personally i know it’s unhealthy and unnecessary and irresponsible.

if you are someone who is outraged by nike using child-labor in sweatshops to make shoes, then i think you are also someone who should be outraged by dairy cows being kept pregnant, year round, strapped to a machine that shortens their lifespan by 60%, while their offspring are locked in boxes to keep them from developing muscles before they’re slaughtered as veal.

i’m not trying to make everyone become a vegan PeTA supporter. but it doesn’t take much effort to become a more conscientious consumer by avoiding products, food, and companies that exploit animals, people, and the environment while also disregarding the adverse effects their products can have on you, the consumer (if you do’nt care about the animals being killed, then read fast food nation to learn about the horrible working conditions for the people involved and the corrupt, exploitive nature of the industry). people remain too willfully ignorant of what they do to the earth, animals, and their own bodies. groups like PeTA, even though they use extreme tactics that unfortunately alienate rather than persuede, are trying to make people aware of these things. if you eat meat, and you’re a conscientious person, then you should try to eat free-range, organic meat and cook it in the most healthy way you can.

you can have your cake and eat it too- all it takes is a little label-reading and research.

for example- the monterey bay aquarium has a great program for promoting responsible fishing and seafood eating. if you love seafood, but care about the environment, then you should follow their guidelines. you can find that here:
http://montereybayaquarium.com/cr/seafoodwatch.asp

if you love eating other animals, then you should do some research and find out how to do that responsibly.

i won’t be returning to this argument because it’s making me too angry and making me hate everyone. so this i smy last post on the subject.

Well, if Penn were a junkie, I’d hand him an infected needle and piss on him when he nods off. What a fucking moron. Yeah, why not make all the animals on Earth suffer for our stupidity?

There’s no need for animal testing. Wake the fuck up, people. This is America! The biggest collection of dumb fucks in the Western world! You know goddamn well that there are plenty of people who would volunteer to be experimented on. Make it a reality TV show, with the survivor(s) getting some cash or a really cool appliance, and they’d be lining up for a chance to be on TV. Yes, I’m serious. Are there any shortages of worthless bastards trying to get on Jerry Springer’s show? How about the useless dorks from Jackass? They’re already determined to kill themselves just for pure entertainment; why not do it for a good cause? Then you don’t have the problem of trying to extrapolate research results from one species to another.

I loved the P&T show. Serves you dumbasses right. I love the jackass who compared himself to Jesus. How about this – if you put a tiger in a room with a human and an apple – and if the tiger eats the apple and signs a petition to have the human set free – I’ll buy you a new car.

Taste of your own medicine.

So, the 597 soldiers that have died in Iraq so far are justified by the “greater good.” That’s the argument Bush is using.

I think the lives of our soldiers lost during WW2 were justified by the greater good of stopping the Holocaust.

first let me point out that i was not comparing animals to slavery- i was comparing medical animal experimentation to the Tuskegee experiments on the effects of syphillis in African Americans.

Well, there are a number of flaws with the argument. The biggest one being that the Tuskegee experiments were secretive, cruel, and unnecessary (since there was already a treatment for syphilis). If you’re trying to use this comparison to imply that all medical testing on animals is as sick and pointless then you’re obviously ignoring all the positive developments that have been made to society thanks to animal testing.

Secondly, the implication that the support of animal testing and the barbaric racism of 100+ years ago are morally equivalent is just sick. In the future, if you wanna get people to take your side of the argument, you’ll have more luck if you don’t insinuate that they’re racist.

Finally, the majority of Americans (myself included) don’t think that animal life is equal to human life. That doesn’t mean we’re all inhuman monsters who kill animals for sport (unlike your buddy Ted Nugent). There’s a reasonable middle ground here, which is why groups like The Humane Society deserve more support and recognition that those like PETA.

because he is a responsible meat-eater. he’s a conservationist. he raises his own animals, kills only what he can use, and he uses all of it. much the same way as the american indians. i have absolutely no problem with that.

The modern meat industry arguably uses as much (if not more) of the animal than the Native Americans ever did. Why do you think there are animal byproducts in just about everything?

there is a natural order, but humans have forced themselves to the top of the food chain in a horribly irresponsible and destructive way.

What are the elements of this natural order that humans are overlooking? We’re destroying the environment and all, but it’s not human beings are the only animals guilty of over-breeding and using up all their resources.

There’s something that strikes me odd about praising “the natural order” while decrying human beings for acting like carnivores. Is everything that humans do automatically “unnatural”? Go watch Animal Planet for a few minutes and tell me if you see any other carnivores treating their victims like “equals”.

Using animals for food, testing, whatever while trying to minimize animal suffering is a complicated issue. Everyone has a comfort level here whether you’re someone who will kill anything that moves or someone who refuses to eat honey or watch movies because they’re shot with gelatin film. I know we’re never going to agree on this, but demonizong people who disagree with you (as PETA often does) is just immature.

first let me point out that i was not comparing animals to slavery- i was comparing medical animal experimentation to the Tuskegee experiments on the effects of syphillis in African Americans. i agree the slavery analogy that PeTA uses is a vague concpet and there are too many differences. although one could make the argument that circus animals are slaves- but anyway….

here’s my biggest problem with the treatment of animals- it has to do with the corporate influence on the use of animals in/as products. this is an entirelly different argument and one that Penn & Teller didn’t get into.

On that episode of Bullshit, they even interviewd Ted Nugent, a man who i admire. why do i admire him? because he is a responsible meat-eater. he’s a conservationist. he raises his own animals, kills only what he can use, and he uses all of it. much the same way as the american indians. i have absolutely no problem with that. unfortunately Penn & Teller didn’t get into that, they just showed clips of Ted saying “MEAT IS FOOD.” and “PeTA activists have threatened to kill my children.”

i hate that mis-guided PeTA activists would think to inflict harm on anyone because of their ideology. i do’nt agree with that. i also do’nt agree with PeTA’s efforts at protesting animal shelters and other organizations that are doing their best with a difficult situation. and i, too, amd shocked at the hypocricy that P&T pointed out.

the biggest problem i have with the rest of the meat-eaters in the world, is the irresponsible practices of the food corporations. i feel the same way about non-meat food production and corporate farming. that’s the biggest problem that i wish groups like PeTA would concentrate more of their time on. corporate irresponsibility is rampant on all fronts- whether it’s Halliburton, Enron, Nike, Tyson, KFC, Dairy companies, Meat-packing plants, or whatever- they are all doing reckless things to destroy us and our world.

there is a natural order, but humans have forced themselves to the top of the food chain in a horribly irresponsible and destructive way. the massive ammounts of arrogant humans on earth have caused animals to be viewed as products, not our fellow earthly creatures that deserve our respect and equal treatment.

so, when i say they deserve the same treatment as humans, that’s what i mean. the american indians (or native americans if you prefer that term) had it right. Ted Nugent has it right (althoguh i think he values himself more than any other human or animal on earth- but that’s a different issue altogether).