Let’s Call It A Tie
How bizarre. I was just reading Andrew Sullivan’s assessment of the debate and he called it an “overwhelming a debate victory for Edwards”. Personally, I think Edwards missed a lot of opportunities and took a lot of punches. Why didn’t he talk about Cheney’s pre-war promise of troops being “greeted as liberators”? Or the Administration’s promises about the low cost of the war? Why didn’t he do a better job talking about the $87 billion? And why the hell did he spend so much time on Halliburton?
Earlier this afternoon, I wrote about 3/4 of a post about why I thought Edwards was might lose the debate. Among the points I made were that the format favors Dick Cheney (who’s really soft-spoken and direct) over Edwards (who’s at his best when he’s engaging a crowd). After tonight, I think that was pretty much the way things worked out. If this was a townhall-style debate, Edwards would have killed.
On the other hand, my post was also going to point out Cheney’s reputation for being the “red meat” Republican. My fear was that his directness could cut through Edwards’ charm and inexperience like a warm knife through butter. That prediction was, luckily, way off the mark. Edwards stumbled a bit in the foreign policy portions of the debate, but he held his own and hit back hard on domestic issues.
Cheney made some major mistakes that will come back and bite him in the ass. Number one, he completely failed on the gay marriage questions. It was such a massive stumble, I’ll reprint the relevant portions of the exchange :
IFILL: I want to read something you said four years ago at this very setting: “Freedom means freedom for everybody.” You said it again recently when you were asked about legalizing same-sex unions. And you used your family’s experience as a context for your remarks.Can you describe then your administration’s support for a constitutional ban on same-sex unions?
CHENEY: Gwen, you’re right, four years ago in this debate, the subject came up. And I said then and I believe today that freedom does mean freedom for everybody. People ought to be free to choose any arrangement they want. It’s really no one else’s business.
. . .
And the fact is that the president felt that it was important to make it clear that that’s the wrong way to go, as far as he’s concerned.Now, he sets the policy for this administration, and I support the president.
IFILL: Senator Edwards, 90 seconds.
EDWARDS: …as to this question, let me say first that I think the vice president and his wife love their daughter. I think they love her very much. And you can’t have anything but respect for the fact that they’re willing to talk about the fact that they have a gay daughter, the fact that they embrace her. It’s a wonderful thing. And there are millions of parents like that who love their children, who want their children to be happy.
And I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, and so does John Kerry.
I also believe that there should be partnership benefits for gay and lesbian couples in long-term, committed relationships.
But we should not use the Constitution to divide this country.
No state for the last 200 years has ever had to recognize another state’s marriage.
This is using the Constitution as a political tool, and it’s wrong.
IFILL: New question, but same subject.
As the vice president mentioned, John Kerry comes from the state of Massachusetts, which has taken as big a step as any state in the union to legalize gay marriage. Yet both you and Senator Kerry say you oppose it.
Are you trying to have it both ways?
EDWARDS: No. I think we’ve both said the same thing all along.
We both believe that — and this goes onto the end of what I just talked about — we both believe that marriage is between a man and a woman.
But we also believe that gay and lesbians and gay and lesbian couples, those who have been in long-term relationships, deserve to be treated respectfully, they deserve to have benefits.
For example, a gay couple now has a very difficult time, one, visiting the other when they’re in the hospital, or, for example, if, heaven forbid, one of them were to pass away, they have trouble even arranging the funeral.
I mean, those are not the kind of things that John Kerry and I believe in. I suspect the vice president himself does not believe in that.
. . .
IFILL: Mr. Vice President, you have 90 seconds.CHENEY: Well, Gwen, let me simply thank the senator for the kind words he said about my family and our daughter.
I appreciate that very much.
IFILL: That’s it?
CHENEY: That’s it.
Let’s be clear here. This wasn’t just a chickenshit moment on Cheney’s part. It was truly heartbreaking.
While the transcript makes it look like Edwards mention of Cheney’s daughter was a cheap shot (and I’m sure that was a part of it), he delivered it with complete sincerity. And that’s how Cheney seemed to interpret it as well. As Edwards was talking about the love the Cheney’s have for their gay daughter, there was a subtlety to the look on Cheney’s face that was truly heartbreaking. I’ve watched it three times now and I gotta say, it looked as if this was the first moment in which the weight of his hypocrisy on this issue really weighed him down. For a brief moment, I actually felt sorry for the guy.
But he’s still a liar, so fuck him. There’s this relatively minor lie, which was in service of a rather substantial attack :
CHENEY: You’ve got one of the worst attendance records in the United States senate.Now, in my capacity as vice president, I am the president of senate, the presiding officer. I’m up in the senate most Tuesdays when they’re in session.
The first time I ever met you was when you walked on the stage tonight.
Ummmmm…bullshit.
Then there’s this major lie :
EDWARDS: Mr. Vice President, there is no connection between the attacks of September 11th and Saddam Hussein. The 9/11 Commission has said it. Your own secretary of state has said it. And you’ve gone around the country suggesting that there is some connection. There is not.And in fact the CIA is now about to report that the connection between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein is tenuous at best.
And, in fact, the secretary of defense said yesterday that he knows of no hard evidence of the connection.
We need to be straight with the American people.
[. . .]
CHENEY: The senator has got his facts wrong. I have not suggested there’s a connection between Iraq and 9/11
In flipping through the channels, I’ve already seen a couple news organizations juxtapose this Cheney quote with one of the million times he tied Saddam to 9/11.
Edwards could have done a lot better tonight than he did, but I suspect he held his own enough to keep the momentum on Kerry’s side. Even if he got his ass kicked, it probably wouldn’t have mattered. As we saw with Cheney’s win over Lieberman in 2000, Stockdale stealing the show in 1992, or Lloyd Bensen’s devastation of Dan Quayle, the vice presidential debates really don’t mean much.
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I think the only reason it wasn’t an Edwards “victory” was that Cheney refused to EAT HIS OWN LIES when Edwards threw them back to him. Instead, he “kept his cool” (which is one way to put it), and continued to stand by his lies. He’s trying to put Edwards in the position of the “wild accuser,” no matter how true Johnny’s words are.
What will matter is that the people will hear the truth from Edwards juxtaposed next to Cheney’s distortions – I can’t believe he won’t just use the L-word – and judge for themselves. Plus, this is also setting the stage for Friday’s town-hall debate.
So I wouldn’t call it a tie that fast.
Comment by Assamite — October 5, 2004 @ 11:41 pm
Edwards frustrated me. He had eight hundred opportunities to nail Cheney and never did. Unlike Kerry last week, I felt like Edwards was parroting memorized lines, and he wasn’t able to capitalize on anything new that Cheney gave him (and there was a lot). When Cheney claimed that he’d never implied a link between Al Qaeda and Saddam, WHY didn’t Edwards cite the numerous times he did? Hell, even I could name instances off the top of my head. When Cheney said that the administration never let up in their pursuit of Osama, WHY didn’t Edwards quote Bush saying, “I don’t know where Osama is and I really don’t care”? The Tora Bora thing is well and good, but that Bush quote seems like such a devastating smoking gun and it boggles my mind that it has not been used in these debates (much as it boggles my mind that it was virtually ignored by the country and the media when Bush originally said it).
I am surprised at how little of an asset Edwards has been as a veep candidate (at least on a televised scale). He has not served the campaign very well in most of his television appearances, and I thought that was basically the point. I know a lot of people who were big Edwards fans in the primaries, but I talked to one tonight and he was disappointed too.
Comment by Kyle — October 6, 2004 @ 12:48 am
Also, it pains me that during the gay marriage portion of the debate, I agreed with Cheney far more than I agreed with Edwards. Cheney was actually honest when answering and dared to go against the administration party line by stating that he thought gay marriage should be a states’ rights issue. While Edwards also came out in favor of states’ rights, his unprompted “but marriage should only be between a man and a woman” response (which he repeated twice) was so muddled that I could barely stand it, especially since I know that deep down, Edwards supports gay marriage, but considers it political suicide to say so. Wonkette was right on the money when she summarized Edwards’ answer as “We shouldn’t be talking about this. We ought to be talking about… something I am less conflicted over.”
Comment by Kyle — October 6, 2004 @ 1:03 am
The Veep Debate: A Classic Draw?
A see-saw Vice Presidential debate featured Vice President Dick Cheney and John Edwards showing off some of their best — and least-best stuff — and it ended in a draw. (See below on polls which don’t agree. But then we
Trackback by The Moderate Voice — October 6, 2004 @ 1:27 am
I only watched the first half of the debate, and there was no doubt in my mind that he performed a million times better than John Kerry. Why? He was able to whittle down every position he and Kerry have taken into easy-to-understand bullet points. Kerry lacks that ability. Here’s something to chew on, though. Claire, a yellow dog Democrat, admitted last night that she thought that she agreed with Cheney in regards to the Kerry/Edwards position on Iraq. They were for it when it was politically expedient and against it when it became vital to their campaigns. That suggests to me that the Democrats are going to have a difficult time overcoming the idea that Kerry is a panderer. I would agree with her.
Is there any doubt, though, that last night’s debate was much better than last week’s?
Comment by E-Rock — October 6, 2004 @ 5:08 am
Never met Edwards? Never said there was any connection to Iraq and 911? Never meant that a vote for Kerry means America will have an increased chance of terrorist attacks? Anyone can justify their actions by bending and stretching the truth. We have an administration not of resolve, but of alibis. Where does the buck stop in the Bush White House. They say they are have strong resolve. But resolve for what? Resolve to cover their decisions, resolve to keep the GOP in power, resolve to serve the interests of big business, HMO’s and insurance companies. When the subject of Ohio came up, I wished Edwards was going to say that Ohio has gone down hill dramatically in the last 4 years not only because of GOP White House, Senate & Congress, but also because we have a GOP governor, senate and house. The GOP loves to run on guns, gays, and god issues, because their record of service to the American people is so pitifully poor.
Comment by Betty — October 6, 2004 @ 5:28 am
I agree with you Greg and Kyle. Edwards let Cheney off the hook repeatedly. He had his moments, but I have to say I was pretty disappointed. It seems as if the spin is calling it close, and plenty of people are happy with his perfomance, but I really don’t think he was very strong.
Comment by Mr Furious — October 6, 2004 @ 7:33 am
You don’t nail the Cheney. That’s what Team BushCo was hoping for. Just like we were hoping that Cheney would snarl and foam at the mouth. It wasn’t going to happen. Edwards doesn’t win by nailing people. He stayed within the bounds of the debate and he made his points. They will resonate with the people who matter because they aren’t interested in nailing the other guy. That puts them off.
As for gay rights and Cheney’s heartbreak. I’d feel worse for the old man if he didn’t sell his daughter down the river in support of a an administration whose policies include endless war and the destruction of the middle class and organized labor.
Comment by eRobin — October 6, 2004 @ 8:52 am
The gay marriage segment was IMO where Cheney came closest to redeeming himself. This is a man who’s words need to be parsed as carefully as Bill Clinton’s to divine their truth value, and he was rather clearly conflicted. Declining to use his time after Edward’s nice comments about his daughter showed some style; it was clear to me that he pretty much agreed with the Edwards/Kerry position but loyalty restrained him from saying so.
Comment by Bill Arnold — October 6, 2004 @ 10:24 am
FactCheck.com – Check it out if you haven’t already… Cheney screwed up (he meant to refer to FactCheck.org on the Haliburton issue) and the people who own factcheck.com decided to redirect hits to http://www.georgesoros.com, where the headline reads “Why we must not re-elect president Bush”. Awesome.
Comment by mona — October 6, 2004 @ 4:58 pm