Just Venting…
The last time I cross-posted something at The Huffington Post, it was my pro-immigration rant “Hell Yeah, I Support ‘Amnesty.’ Why Don’t You?”. I figured that the post was pretty easy to understand, but after sixty comments about how clueless I am, I jumped into the lion’s den of the comments section and posted the following :
You know what would be awesome? If the posters here had bothered to actually read the words I wrote before writing negative comments. I expect this sort of thing from the wingnuts and the trolls (you can smell their condescending, Fox News attitude coming from a mile away), but I find it especially funny that I’m getting trashed from the left as well. I know I picked a provocative title, but read the damn post people. If you’re convinced that I just “don’t get it”, then at least respond to the argument that I was making rather than the argument you *think* I made. I never, ever argued for wide-open borders. The whole point of the post was to offer my ideas for how we should deal with the millions of illegal immigrants that are already here. I don’t support amnesty in the sense of giving automatic citizenship to millions of people, but I do think that someone who’s been working here for an extended period of time should be allowed to become citizens. I tend to choose my words carefully and there’s a reason I put the word “amnesty” in quotes in the post’s title.Seriously, re-read the post before wasting your time debunking an argument that nobody’s making. It just makes you look like an idiot.
Needless to say, cross-posting last night’s immigration post “Let’s pretend for a moment…” hasn’t fared much better. Sigh.
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Well gee, let me help you out my man.
America, including liberals, have turned against illegals. There are very few of you who favor rolling over on your back and taking it every which way from people who have ****ZERO***** intention of actually becoming Americans.
Here, read this article.
Amnesty only encouraged more illegals when Reagon (or was it Bush I?) pushed it.
So more amnesty equals more illegals, get it?
It’s like someone who says “Hey, I was only trying to make pretty fireworks in a wide, open, dry field of dry grass, weeds and dead wood, I didn’t intend to make a fire!”
All actions have consequences, and people are tired of the social service drain, SHITTY attitude problems etc. that illegal immigrants provide.
Once again, INCLUDING LIBERALS.
Deal with it ^_^
If you don’t believe me, read your own comments section where I was debating America hating pieces of crap that promote illegal immigration because they literally hate us. “Jose” and the like.
http://www.thetalentshow.org/archives/002420.html
And if you’re wondering how I found you, Raw Story. They have the goods. I am strongly anti-Bush, and I have said in the other thread, firmly believe he is a traitor and deserves to hang. If you still don’t believe me, load up alt.impeach.bush in google groups and google the e-mail address I have listed as well as redkrewe@sprintmail.com. I have a long standing record of hating that treasonous fool, I’m not Republican pretending to be a Dem etc. etc.
Bush deserves to hang just as much as “Jose” and all of his buddies deserve to get their asses kicked out of our country.
I understand the emotional value of your arguments, “they just want to be free” *cry cry cry* but look at the facts.
How many were waving Mexican flags instead of American flags?
Look at their refusal (not just the Mexicans, but Asians as well) to learn English.
Look at their strong nationalism towards their actual home country.
Look at their disrespect of our law, as well as their refusal to consider themselves anything but people of the land they came from, rather than Americans.
A is A.
No amount of emtional arguments will change that fact, which is why even places you expect to get sympathy… you’re getting your butt torn apart on.
My “friend,” take a hint.
You’re trying to swim upstream a tsunami strength raging river with a toothpick. Look a the logic; look at the number of liberals against you… you can stand with the illegals all you want, but you WILL lose.
Comment by Brandon Montoya, American Latino — June 21, 2006 @ 11:46 am
Jeez, Greg, I was going to tell you to let things slide more and not get so upset when wackos post stuff without reading or comprehending your article. But based on the above comment, I’d be pissed too!
Comment by dAnimal — June 21, 2006 @ 1:00 pm
How funny that Brandon Montoya says
as if he intends to illustrate exactly your point about people responding to an argument nobody is making. Where exactly did Greg say he wanted to roll over and take it every which way?
Comment by Cris — June 21, 2006 @ 1:56 pm
Hmmm… where to start?
Frankly I think that Bush’s “guest worker” program actually makes a lot of sense. Brandon is right in the sense that large numbers of illegals coming here to earn money have no intention of staying here. Which is precisely why we see labor camps full of men. They’re here to earn money to send back home. Oh sure, lots of them come here to stay and that’s another issue entirely. But the reality is that many of them have zero intention of staying here. A guest worker program which would legitimize them would seem to be a no-brainer.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m a harsh critic of Bush in general. But I think he makes a lot of sense on the guest worker program idea.
Part of the issue, and one which Brandon totally glossed over, is the fact that much of the land west of the Southwest used to be part of Mexico. So when Brandon says, “Look at their strong nationalism towards their actual home country,” he is distorting the historical reality and in fact is presenting a purely nationalist argument himself.
I also think that the social services drain argument is one-sided at best. It ignores the fact that truly massive amounts of taxes get paid directly into both state and federal coffers by illegals via payroll taxes and local taxes get paid by them indirectly via the rent they pay. Only a complete moron of a real estate owner would not pass on property taxes costs to tenants, for example.
That said… I firmly believe that conservatives make an absolutely valid point when they talk about illegal entry into this country being a crime which shouldn’t be tolerated. Yes, our immigration system for would-be citizens is a farce. But that is no justification for ignoring our laws and territorial integrity.
As always, both common sense and the greater good is to be found somewhere inbetween the positions of both extremes.
My two cents worth…
Comment by Kevin — June 21, 2006 @ 2:03 pm
Greg, I’m sorry to say, but to a certain extent it’s YOU who needs to read more carefully. People do get what you’re saying, they’re simply disagreeing strongly and expanding the conversation (as happens on every blog topic).
There aren’t a lot of people (liberal or conservative) in favor of any “pathway to citizenship” for people here illegally, period. You don’t like for it to be called amnesty, we get it. But you can wave your hands and stomp your feet all you like and it is still putting people who are here illegally ahead of people who have respected our laws in the path to citizenship.
People agree on tighter border security and stronger enforcement against companies — but agreement doesn’t motivate as much posting, so everyone will continue to post responses to your slow-motion-amnesty proposal because the vast majority of Americans don’t support it.
Comment by Nathaniel — June 21, 2006 @ 2:14 pm
I was going to tease you by saying “You obviously JUST DONT GET IT,” but after seeing the above comments, I’ll just say, “Good job, I agree with you.”
And those of you using the “A-word” (amnesty) here and elsewhere are shooting their anti-immigration cause in the foot.
First, the McCain-Kennedy bill was not about amnesty (look up the definition of amnesty, then look at the penalties the bill would have imposed on undocumented residents). It wasn’t a great bill, but its deficiencies had nothing to do with amnesty, something which the bill did not provide.
Second, Lou Dobbs and all the rest screaming “AMNESTY!!!” are no doubt sending many Mexicans who aren’t all that fluent in English the wrong message, and inadvertantly encouraging them to come here in greater numbers. Further, I’m sure that the press coverage of this issue has lit a fire under several Mexicans who DO have a strong grasp of English, and they have decided they had better come here now, while they still can.
You folks who are “Amnesty” opponents on are more than likely responsible for the impending massive influx of illegals.
Comment by Gideon S. — June 21, 2006 @ 2:42 pm
Lou Dobbs and all the rest screaming “AMNESTY!!!” are no doubt sending many Mexicans who aren’t all that fluent in English the wrong message, and inadvertantly encouraging them to come here in greater numbers.
And of course, anyone questioning the Iraq War is aiding the enemy by showing them weakness in our resolve, right? We would all just be much better off if we’d keep quiet and never draw attention to problems, because that just makes people want to take advantage of the problems.
Comment by Nathaniel — June 21, 2006 @ 9:02 pm
Okay, Nathaniel. Let me break this down for you.
The GOP raised this issue to energize its racist base and get those voters to vote for the GOP this November. The Republicans who raised it had no intention of ACTUALLY doing something about the problem, because A) It would piss-off businessmen who use undocumented workers and B) America doesn’t have the resources to jettison 12 million people.
When the plan backfired, McCain and Kennedy proposed legislation that would require undocumented residents to turn themselves in, pay back taxes for the years they’ve been here illegally, stay current with their taxes, spend a lot of money to learn English, and then — after ten to twelve years — go to the back of the legal immigration line and apply for citizenship.
That is not “amnesty.” Calling such a plan “amnesty” was a cheap, lazy, and dishonest way to kill it. Further, I believe that doing so exacerbated the very problem immigration critics claimed they wanted solved.
The only uspide to this mess is that the GOP has not only alienated Hispanics, but the members of their base who got their hopes up and now feel betrayed because the GOP has backed away from doing anything for at least a year.
By then, it will (hopefully) be the Democrats’ turn to create a solution, and I hope they look at some of Greg’s suggestions.
Comment by Gideon S. — June 22, 2006 @ 2:04 am
As liberals/leftists/whatever, maybe we should cut Greg some slack. I don’t agree with everything he writes, but I also give him the benefit of the doubt because he seems to know what he’s talking about, and he has a great deal of passion. I’d address the substance of the immigration issue, since it is important to security, but as has been pointed out (and as is manifestly obvious), this is just an even-numbered year political ploy. (And a poor one at that: can anyone think of a more divisive issue for the GOP? I mean, they’re of one mind on most issues, but this clearly splits them in two, pitting the big businesses against the knuckle-draggers.)
Comment by Ben — June 22, 2006 @ 9:01 am
Calm Down Everyone, this will all become moot once I’ve extablished my one world government. Everyone everywhere on the earth will belong to me, there will be no borders and everybody will be free to go wherever I send them, uh, they want to. Feel free to speak among yourselves, there’s someone at the drive-through….
Comment by Kamachanda — June 23, 2006 @ 5:44 am
Part of the issue, and one which Brandon totally glossed over, is the fact that much of the land west of the Southwest used to be part of Mexico. So when Brandon says, “Look at their strong nationalism towards their actual home country,” he is distorting the historical reality and in fact is presenting a purely nationalist argument himself.
-Kevin
And it is ***NOT*** part of Mexico ***NOW***, is it?
If “first owner” has the right then the first owners are the Native Americans of this country, not to a bunch of cowards too scared to fight for rights in their own country.
America is ***OUR*** nation, ***WE*** make the laws and if we think our neighbors are a bunch of self serving assholes who hate us, then we can certainly roll up the welcome mat (not that we ever had one out for them) and tell them to handle their own business and stay off our doorstep, at gun point.
I also think that the social services drain argument is one-sided at best.
-Kevin
Sure. Their side does all the taking and does ***VERY LITTLE*** paying into it.
It ignores the fact that truly massive amounts of taxes get paid directly into both state and federal coffers by illegals via payroll taxes
Someone (that would be you, Kevin) is trying entirely too hard to bullshit. Illegals aren’t on payrolls, they’re usually in the agribusiness and are paid out of pocket. At best they pay sales tax. And furthermore…
and local taxes get paid by them indirectly via the rent they pay. Only a complete moron of a real estate owner would not pass on property taxes costs to tenants, for example.
And only a “complete moron” would argue that a RE owner hiking the rent equals dutifully paying the taxes. Well to be more accurate, it could be more than a “complete moron” advocating that, but also a paid by the Mexican government PR whore. Those of us watching the news do know that the Vicente’s government has been paying for “scientific studies” and many phony little advocacy groups that are popping up all over the place. You could easily be one of Vicente’s putas, but so far you’re not coming across like one. So we’ll stick to “complete moron” until you prove capable of examining the fact that you’re totally sucking up Mexican consulate talking points and repeating them.
There aren’t a lot of people (liberal or conservative) in favor of any “pathway to citizenship” for people here illegally, period. You don’t like for it to be called amnesty, we get it. But you can wave your hands and stomp your feet all you like and it is still putting people who are here illegally ahead of people who have respected our laws in the path to citizenship.
People agree on tighter border security and stronger enforcement against companies — but agreement doesn’t motivate as much posting, so everyone will continue to post responses to your slow-motion-amnesty proposal because the vast majority of Americans don’t support it
-Nathanial
Good going Nate, this cuts to the quick here. Just because they don’t call it amnesty doesn’t mean it ceases to be so.
And those of you using the “A-word” (amnesty) here and elsewhere are shooting their anti-immigration cause in the foot.
-Gideon
Not at all, A is A. Something is what it is no matter what it is called. A pardon and an offer of citizenship, even if terse, is still the same thing, in particular since the plan takes the illegal’s word on when they came in. At least the last plan that was on deck anyway.
You folks who are “Amnesty” opponents on are more than likely responsible for the impending massive influx of illegals.
-Gideon
No, we’ll be responsible for the massive OUTflux of illegals ;^)
The GOP raised this issue to energize its racist base and get those voters to vote for the GOP this November. The Republicans who raised it had no intention of ACTUALLY doing something about the problem, because A) It would piss-off businessmen who use undocumented workers and B)
-Gideon
I will grant you that it is one of the periodic GOP “cattle calls” but this time it has hit a “positive” nerve across the country, not just Republicans and many people (MILLIONS!) who don’t have a trace of racism in them, including many black Americans who are sick of the attitude problems coming out of the illegal community. Some of those illegals are more disrespectful of black Americans than white Americans, which is pretty stupid for someone that doesn’t have a green card, much less citizenship.
America doesn’t have the resources to jettison 12 million people.
-Gideon
Wrong. We do. It’s a simple process, really, and it’s already begun. Just as America should, cities and states across the Union are starting the process already. It starts with cities and states using existing laws or making new, tighter laws requiring proof of citizenship or residency status for medical benefits, insurance, licenses and jobs. Then by enforcing them, arresting them, and kicking them out first thing. Enforcing huge fines and prison time for employers who refuse to comply also helps. In parts of the country, such as San Diego, illegals are actually starting to go home due to lack of jobs. Not only because of our shitty economy, but also because local San Diegans don’t eat at restaurants where Pepe Illegalcano is serving up food with the hand he just wiped his grungy nose with. Once out of jobs, illegals will continue to go home on their own, they don’t have the nuts to take up arms against us. And if they are stupid enough to do so… they’ll get hurt, enough said. They tried to go there somewhat during the Pro-Mexico rallies a few weeks back but it fell apart quickly.
By then, it will (hopefully) be the Democrats’ turn to create a solution, and I hope they look at some of Greg’s suggestions.
-Gideon
Nope. The Dems are going to come around and kick Pepe Illegalcano and his buddies back where they came from. You can see that call coming up from the grass roots of the Democratic party if you look. By all means, please do look, start with Democratic Underground.
Comment by Brandon K. Montoya, American Latino — June 26, 2006 @ 2:59 pm
And to once again, prove my point.
Read this.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060620/ap_on_re_us/illegal_immigrants_crackdown_4
Comment by Brandon K. Montoya — June 26, 2006 @ 3:04 pm
You don’t own the land, the land owns you. The land is raising you to feed to its worms.
Comment by Kamachanda — June 26, 2006 @ 3:54 pm
Um, okay.
Kudos for an original response.
I have to give you that much ;p
Comment by Brandon K. Montoya — June 27, 2006 @ 2:10 pm
By the way, Gideon. While you’re busy repeating Mexican consulate talking points (much like Freepers repeate Rove talking points about warrantless spying and such without thinking about them) I would like to point you to the title of Greg’s post on Huffington.
“Hell yeah I support “amnesty,” why don’t you?”
Gee “Gideon,” I don’t know where us Pro-American folk got that damn “A” word from. Gee. It just suddenly injected itself into the argument. Hmmm.
;^)
Try again, please? And challenge me this time around, give me an argument that doesn’t take more than ten seconds to counter, I would appreciate the “puzzle.”
Comment by Brandon Montoya, American Latino — June 29, 2006 @ 1:10 pm
Well, assholes? Care to comment on these illegals who conspired to harass and kill African Americans so they could make their communities purely Latino?
Come on, bitches, open up your pie-hole and let’s see you ****TRY**** to explain this one away.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-gangs4jul04,0,7027293.story?coll=la-home-headlines
Comment by Brandon Montoya, American Latino — July 5, 2006 @ 10:47 am